This is a timely addition to the recent discussion on this comm
Because Dark Souls made money
My summary, for those who don’t want to watch a ten minute video:
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Parrying has gotten very popular.
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It works fairly well.
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Not everyone wants to play a game that relies on responding to cues.
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It doesn’t give a feel of being able to control combat.
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Overuse of one mechanic can make it unappealing.
It doesn’t give a feel of being able to control combat.
I feel this way too often. Some combat become a simon says moment. I think replayability is reduced when bosses are designed to strict - and parrying for big damage is a huge influence here.
Prime ‘content’
Because that’s all that content is. Stuff to fill emptiness. I hate our timeline so much.
The guy who made the video (Ben Croshaw) is a long time game journalist. I often prefer written things over videos as well but he’s not padding his run time with a story about his grandma before he gets to the recipe or anything like that. The above bullet points get to the gist of the content but the rest of the video has examples and deeper explanations
Semi-Ramblomatic is also his long-form content. Fully Ramblomatic, which used to be Zero Punctuation, is even more concise.
Glad to see second wind is doing so well. I haven’t been back to the escapist since the exodus.
There was bad drama last year that cost them some goodwill and support, but that’s over and done. Overall they seem to be doing well.
Was that when Frost left? I know there was some disparity between his and SW’s accounting of how the company was run but I didn’t look very deep into it.
Yeah. A lot of accusations around misconduct, abuse of power, and misuse of funds. And though there was a kernel of truth, the serious / deliberate stuff did not check out, the evidence was presented in a manipulative manner, and the whole thing was clearly personal.
The other creators and co-owners of SW eventually came out with statements on the situation. And I don’t see how all these smart folks that had just struggled to depart a terrible management situation and do have access to SW’s financial records would let themselves get duped like that.
Anyways like I said, over and done.
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I love Yahtzee and have since a hundred years back when a friend introduced me to him via…Amnesia or something like that (then had me play his bomb ass adventure game - the first one I ever played). I am so thankful that he posted a video on this. Cause these modern games going hard on timing based hyper-tough combat have pretty much made the inaccessible to me. Everyone has gone gaga over these modern souls-like games. I just don’t think I have the brain for quick responsive reactions. That’s okay, cause not every game is made for everyone. I do however love bigguns, body horror and phantasms. I have seen the majestic and creepy things in games like Elden Ring, and would love to smash the hey out of them. I just don’t think there’s a chance I could ever “get gud” enough to play to the expected parameters of this type of game when I can’t even do quick time events right. First mil to the person who can bring Soulslikes to the common man! Until then, I’ll play my turn-based clicky games with a dumb smile.
I had to give up on Soulslike games. It’s not that I can’t do it, it’s that every boss makes me feel frustrated for 30 mins to an hour and I’m cursing a blue streak, pissed off when I’m supposed to be having fun. Not worth it to me or my blood pressure.
That’s a fine take. If you realize you’re not having fun, there’s no shame in stopping. For me, the dopamine rush of finally killing a boss after several attempts is worth it. Although the number of attempts I’m willing to put in is quite limited (~15), and I have quit several games after hitting a road block.
It’s funny, I think soulslike games gave me a lot more patience and endurance, I remember several times fighting a boss for an hour+ over and over until I “get it” then when you finally win… The victory feels sooooo earned.
Dude, I’m fucking AWFUL at parrying - to the point that it’s just a mechanic I simply don’t interact with at all - in Soulslikes (and I’m not great at dodging tbh either) and I’ve made it through the majority of the bosses in Elden Ring base (haven’t gotten the DLC), ALL of them in DS3, and I’m currently working through DS2. (Plus both the Star Wars Jedi Souls games completely solo, which are honestly just My First Dark Souls with a SW skin lol)
If at first you don’t succeed, roll a caster and summon people lol
I beat every boss in base game Elden Ring without parrying once, using melee only, and no ashes or player summons either (I summoned NPCs a few times if it was an NPC I liked or an interesting story, which meant summoning them for Morgott, Fire Giant, and the two gargoyles). I even got Malenia, eventually! I don’t say this as a brag, because I am NOT good at these games. I say it to say that if I can do it, basically anyone can.
I think it’s a matter of mindset. You’ve got to go in psychologically prepared to fail a over and over again, and you’ve got to be analytical enough to figure out why you failed. If you’re really struggling with a boss, maybe don’t even try to attack for a couple of runs, just focus on figuring out when to dodge and when you have windows. Maybe your current weapon isn’t the right one for the job because it’s a bit too slow to hit this boss or it does a damage type that the boss resists. Maybe you just need to go somewhere else for a bit and come back with more vigour and a better weapon. Elden Ring is really good for letting you do that.
Obviously that’s not going to be a process that everyone enjoys, and if someone doesn’t enjoy it that’s totally fair enough. It’s a game, we’re all just here to have fun. But the actual skill floor is one almost everyone can achieve if they want to and approach it ready to experiment and learn
The funny thing about Clair Obscur is that because they made parrying “mandatory” people now focus on all-hit runs as the hard thing to do instead of no-hit runs. So they’re proving that it is actually not mandatory and that the game is really a normal JRPG that is just a bit hard in the beginning.
It’s a core game mechanic
This like complaining that jumping is required to beat Mario
I think, part of it is also that it’s a rather isolated feature which is fun on its own. You don’t need multiple systems working together to make parrying fun. Instead, you just react in the right moment and there’s your endorphins. Pretty much the hardest part about implementing it, is to make enemy attacks readable, which you likely need for dodge rolls, too. And then especially for AAA titles, which can’t afford to experiment much, such an isolated feature is just a no-brainer to include.
This reads like a crutch though and reflects part of the problem: games are being treated like products and not carefully curated, cohesive experiences, which’s why its consistent inclusion everywhere is being criticized.
If everyone is using the same crutch, no one should be surprised if people start complaining they’re seeing the same crutch everywhere instead of interesting new ideas.
Would you say the same thing about dodging in bullet hells?
What OP said is right. Parrying is an easy mechanic to give dopamine, just like dodging lots of things in bullet hells.
At one point, the choice for defensive mechanism aren’t infinite. We usually see armor, dodge and parry/block.
Parrying is clearly popular by looking at smash successes from FromSoftware where this is a key mechanic in the games.
People usually complain about parrying when it isn’t clear when to parry, or parrying is inconsistent. It feels cheap. The mechanic itself isn’t the issue, but how it is implemented.
The mechanic itself isn’t the issue, but how it is implemented.
It depends on how (and where) its implemented is his point. It needs to be woven into the comvat system as it is in FromSoft, Batman, Ultrakill, or Cuphead, not tacked on because its easy or popular. Each of those uses parrying in a different way to enhance its combat. On the other hand, if you take these mechanics without the greater context or understanding of why it works, then it’ll tends to stand out as bad, or remain unused. Doom Eternal is an example that immediately comes to mind. The whole game is about fast paced combat, with a plethora of new mobility mechanics, that is, until you encounter one of the enemies you need to parry. Then, the game comes to a grinding halt while you wait for the enemy to take action, so you are able to react, completely opposite the rage-fueled persona and the mobility focus of every other mechanic. Compare that to Ultrakill, where parrying isn’t just a reactive way to mitigate damage, its a situational attack that allows you to keep moving and keep up your carnage.
Game mechanics work best when they’re cohesive. Parrying, due to its simplicity can be tacked on easily, breaking this cohesiveness if not given the same weight as the rest of the mechanics.
OP’s point is that parry in itself doesn’t need much more around it to feel rewarding.
The guy I replied to said that this is a crutch. I asked if that applied to bullet hell dodging because dodging in bullet hell is a core gameplay element and you’ll be hard pressed to find people calling that mechanic a crutch. But you’ll find shitty bullet hell with a terrible implementation of the mechanic.
The mechanic itself isn’t a crutch and has been used successfully numerous times and I fail how to see how the mechanic in itself is crutch, and not the bad implementation by some devs.
Show me a great game mechanic and I can find you terrible implementation of that game mechanic.
Its a crutch because its expected to hold the game up, rather than the game supporting its own weight. In your bullet hell example, dodging isn’t a crutch, it’s the foundational mechanic. A better example would be a slot machine system (something that is near-inherently engaging) being added to a bullet hell game, not because it fits but because its fun independently and helps distract from the fact that they haven’t put any effort into the core gameplay. The mechanic isn’t a crutch, its inclusion as a tacked-on addition is.
Then it can be said about any mechanic, isn’t it? In Soulslike, parry is part of the core mechanics.
When Balatro exploded, a ton of copy cats tried to get in on the action. It happens all the time. Why is parrying any different?
Using your clones example, the Slay the Spire “clones” that give roguelike deckbuilders a bad name aren’t Inscryption or Monster Train or Balatro. Its things like Across the Obelisk and Wildfrost, that are good, but fail to capture what makes others great, and the numerous low-effort copies you’ve likely never heard of that viewed it as an easy way to make a good game without understanding it. Its not that Roguelike Deckbuilders are bad, obviously, its that lazy, or thoughtless use of the mechanics that is. A game isn’t one mechanic, and trying to treat it as such just results in a messy or bad game.
No no no no. No.
You ever played DOOM? And i dont mean the recent incarnations, i mean the original one.
No Parry. Only damage and more damage. And lots of endorfines. BFE.
I hate parrying.
Ultimate Doom didn’t even have i-frames. If two rockets arrive at your location, you just die.
Of course, the game didn’t have jumping, either, and in most games that’s kind of a big deal.
